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Mike-48 
Bobcat
Joined: October/25/2013
Location: Portland, OR
Points: 63
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 Topic: Hilo USB clock @ wrong freq
Posted: December/31/2013 at 7:16pm |
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Hi,
My Hilo gets its input through the LT-USB card. I play music in various formats, mostly 44.1/16, 44.1/24, and 96/24.
When the Hilo has been in standby for a while, and I then play something, the Hilo clock often will be at the wrong frequency. At least, that is my interpretation of fearsomely loud, distorted, crackly sound. Sometimes I can get it to sync with a power off and on. Sometimes it takes playing several seconds of a 96/24 track before I get it to sync to 44/16 again.
This is getting more frequent -- maybe because I am playing more 24/96 files? It seems to me that if I put the Hilo in standby after playing a higher-rate file, it will then not sync to a 44.1 file when I wake it up.
Is there a way to get the Hilo to sync to the USB source every time? Is this something that can be addressed through firmware, and are firmware updates in the works for Hilo or LT-USB card (whichever is the culprit here)? Finally, would I get better results with the firewire card?
Edited by Mike-48 - December/31/2013 at 7:17pm
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Mike
Portland, OR
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Mike N
Admin Group
Sales & Support Coordinator
Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
Points: 2488
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Posted: January/02/2014 at 9:18am |
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Hi Mike,
Sorry you are having an issue. You mention playing at 96K but syncing to 44.1? I am a little confused by that. Are you using the onboard sample rate converter?
Is Hilo set to INTERNAL as Sync Source?
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Michael Nicoletti
Lynx Studio Technology
Sales & Support Coordinator
714-545-4700 Ext. 211
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Mike-48
Bobcat
Joined: October/25/2013
Location: Portland, OR
Points: 63
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Posted: January/07/2014 at 2:33pm |
Hi Mike, thanks for the reply. Just got back into town so I can now answer your questions. I can recreate the issue this way: - Put the Hilo into standby with the front-panel switch.
- Start to play some music at 44.1, fed to the Hilo through USB.
- Take the Hilo out of standby.
- The display indicates SR=44100, Sync Source internal, and SynchroLock = Locked, but the distorted sound says otherwise (see previous message).
I can sometimes get everything right by putting the Hilo into standby again, then taking it out. I am not certain this is a Hilo problem. Maybe the player application (JRiver Media Center) does something funny when it tries to play to a DAC in standby. I was hoping you would be familiar with the problem.
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Mike
Portland, OR
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Dave Cawley
Caracal
Joined: December/22/2013
Location: Dartmouth UK
Points: 11
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Posted: January/09/2014 at 7:41am |
Hi Mike I have a Hilo and use iTunes extensively (not the same I know). I have had a handful of audiophile DAC's before, still have some of them.
In my experience any application needs to know first, what it is playing into. And the Hilo in standby is mostly invisible to the computer
So you enable the sound device first, then afterwards the player.
I'm not surprised it doesn't work the other way around.
Regards
Dave
BTW (other) Mike, a lot to do here before I come back to you, I have two HiFi Shows to exhibit at and the all important Miami Boat show in a few weeks !!
Edited by Dave Cawley - January/09/2014 at 7:45am
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AES full member http://www.aes.org/aes/davecawley
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David A Hoatson
Admin Group
Forum Administrator
Joined: October/01/2003
Location: Idaho
Points: 4993
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Posted: January/09/2014 at 8:09am |
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Dave,
There are several items missing from your post. First, I must assume you are using Windows. Which version?
Also, I assume you are using ASIO in JRiver because when the Hilo goes into Standby the driver is unloaded and disappears from Windows and OS X, except for the ASIO driver where it still shows up but is disabled. Obviously it would not be possible to start playback on the Hilo when it is in standby. Why are you starting playback on the Hilo when it is in standby?
The ASIO driver requires the hardware to be ON for it to get accurate timing information to send to the application. If the hardware is off, there would be no way to actually start playback accurately.
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Thank you,
David A. Hoatson
Lynx Studio Technology, Inc.
Co-founder, Chief Software Engineer
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Mike-48
Bobcat
Joined: October/25/2013
Location: Portland, OR
Points: 63
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Posted: January/10/2014 at 10:09am |
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Hi David,
I am using Windows 7/64 Pro and the Lynx-supplied ASIO driver. I have JRiver outputting high-passed audio on channels 1+2 (which I route through the Line Out DAC to the main speakers) and low-passed audio on channels 3+4 (which I route through the Monitor DAC to the sub).
I occasionally start playback with the Hilo in standby only because I forget to turn it on. But it's not only under those circumstances that I have trouble with bad sync.
It happens more and more when I start play following a period of inactivity for the Hilo, whether or not it's been in standby. I tried to play a 96/24 file today, and although the ASIO driver and the Hilo both said they were at 96000, I got noise. Then I tried to play a 44.1/16 file, with the same symptoms (Hilo reporting 44100, but noise out). The only way I got music was to power down the Hilo (rear panel switch) and power on again. They I could play at various sample rates with no problems.
Subjectively, it seems my Hilo (or LT-USB) gets "stuck" in some kind of unsynchronized state when it hasn't been used for a while. Since this is happening more and more, my theory is something like a weak logic gate that's getting worse. That, or a tricky programming bug. But a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!
The other ASIO DAC I have is a Meridian Explorer, and in using that on another machine (also JRiver and Windows 7/64 Pro), I have not had any similar issues.
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Mike
Portland, OR
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Mike N
Admin Group
Sales & Support Coordinator
Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
Points: 2488
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Posted: January/10/2014 at 10:17am |
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Hi Mike.
If you put the meters on ALL I/O while you are hearing the noise, are you seeing meter deflection (without any music playing) on any channels and if so, which ones?
Thank you.
Edited by Mike N - January/10/2014 at 10:18am
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Michael Nicoletti
Lynx Studio Technology
Sales & Support Coordinator
714-545-4700 Ext. 211
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Mike-48
Bobcat
Joined: October/25/2013
Location: Portland, OR
Points: 63
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Posted: January/10/2014 at 1:14pm |
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Interesting . . . I am seeing input on USB channels 6, 7, and 8. I have no idea why.
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Mike
Portland, OR
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Mike-48
Bobcat
Joined: October/25/2013
Location: Portland, OR
Points: 63
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Posted: January/10/2014 at 1:18pm |
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I went to the Window Sound control panel and disabled all the Lynx entries. Since ASIO output still works, I assume it's independent of those. Now playback is working fine. So maybe this has nothing to do with sync rate, and I was fooled by an earlier issue involving scenes resetting the clock?
I'll let you know if the problem returns. And it seems you may have an idea of causes/remedies, and if so, please send them!
Thanks.
Edited by Mike-48 - January/10/2014 at 2:31pm
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Mike
Portland, OR
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Dave Cawley
Caracal
Joined: December/22/2013
Location: Dartmouth UK
Points: 11
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Posted: January/10/2014 at 2:36pm |
Mmmmmmmmmmm ! I think an idiots guide to the mixer and all those USB numbers is well overdue ? Dave
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AES full member http://www.aes.org/aes/davecawley
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Mike N
Admin Group
Sales & Support Coordinator
Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
Points: 2488
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Posted: January/10/2014 at 2:48pm |
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Hi, Dave,
Are you seeing USB PLAY meters or USB RECORD? Are there any other meters showing signal?
Edited by Mike N - January/10/2014 at 2:49pm
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Michael Nicoletti
Lynx Studio Technology
Sales & Support Coordinator
714-545-4700 Ext. 211
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Mike-48
Bobcat
Joined: October/25/2013
Location: Portland, OR
Points: 63
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Posted: January/10/2014 at 2:55pm |
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Hi Mike--
The OP (me) is Mike, not Dave!
The high levels with no sound were USB Play channels 6,7,8. It is hard to figure out, because all USB channels are turned OFF for Line Out except 1&2; and all turned OFF for Monitor Out except 3&4.
Disabling the Windows devices has worked so far, which means just an hour or two.
Mike
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Mike
Portland, OR
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Mike-48
Bobcat
Joined: October/25/2013
Location: Portland, OR
Points: 63
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Posted: January/10/2014 at 5:23pm |
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False hope. Problem resurfaced. As before, only USB 1&2 and 3&4 are turned on in the Output Routing page. USB 6 (only) shows a high input level, in the yellow. USB 7&8 show identical input levels, in the green. No other inputs or outputs show level unless a track is playing. When one is, sound is distorted.
This time, I was able to clear the error by putting the Hilo into standby and back. That doesn't always work. When it does, channels 6, 7, 8 no longer show input, and the sound is free of distortion.
Edited by Mike-48 - January/10/2014 at 8:04pm
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Mike
Portland, OR
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Mike-48
Bobcat
Joined: October/25/2013
Location: Portland, OR
Points: 63
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Posted: January/13/2014 at 2:23pm |
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Last time I had this problem, I disconnected the USB cable, and the Hilo meters still showed the false inputs on channels 6, 7, 8. This seems to rule out anything other than a problem with the Hilo.
Is this likely to be fixable through a swap of the USB card, and if so, what is the best way to get warranty service on this?
Thanks
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Mike
Portland, OR
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Mike-48
Bobcat
Joined: October/25/2013
Location: Portland, OR
Points: 63
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Posted: January/16/2014 at 7:39pm |
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Call ticket 4313 filed with online help desk.
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Mike
Portland, OR
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fbfly
Caracal
Joined: February/09/2014
Location: San Jose, CA, U
Points: 2
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Posted: February/09/2014 at 7:08pm |
 Mike-48 wrote:
Last time I had this problem, I disconnected the USB cable, and the Hilo meters still showed the false inputs on channels 6, 7, 8. This seems to rule out anything other than a problem with the Hilo.
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I met exactly the same issue.
OS: Windows 8 64bit. OSX 10.9 HW: Dell Studio XPS 9100, Macbook Pro 17" 2010. Hilo settings: all inputs and outputs are off, except USB 1,2, and Phone out are on.
It might not be usb driver related, because also tried connecting Hilo to a PC without any driver installed, still can reproduce the same problem. And issue happens even when the PC is just powered on (before booting into either OSX or Windows), so it doesn't look like usb driver related.
Hope new firmware can fix this.
Call ticket #4264, looking forward to hear updates.
Edited by fbfly - February/09/2014 at 7:57pm
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Mike-48
Bobcat
Joined: October/25/2013
Location: Portland, OR
Points: 63
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Posted: February/10/2014 at 9:26am |
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Hi fbfly,
IMO it is not the driver, but a quirk of the Hilo hardware. The Hilo can get into this problem state just by connecting a USB cable at the Hilo end while it is running. I have two other makes of USB DAC with ASIO capability, and they have not exhibited this instability when the USB state changes. On the other hand, when it's not misbehaving, the Hilo has wonderful sound quality.
Someone using only the AES-EBU or S/PDIF inputs will never see this problem.
I sent my Hilo to Lynx, and they were able to replicate the problem, so I believe they are working on it further.
I found that it is important to make sure the USB Record entries (Output Routing page) are turned ON. Do not turn them OFF, as that has no effect other than to make this problem occur more often.
If the problem occurs, I found I can often restore the Hilo to a stable state by playing some high-resolution (96/24) music through the USB link.
I hope that helps.
Edited by Mike-48 - February/10/2014 at 9:27am
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Mike
Portland, OR
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fbfly
Caracal
Joined: February/09/2014
Location: San Jose, CA, U
Points: 2
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Posted: February/10/2014 at 11:53am |
Mike-48 wrote:
I found that it is important to make sure the USB Record entries (Output Routing page) are turned ON. Do not turn them OFF, as that has no effect other than to make this problem occur more often.
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Confirmed. I reset Hilo to default settings (the default routing settings leaves most of the inputs ON and outputs ON), then the problem can not be reproduced. At least I have tried for 2 hours, >20 on/off/standby cycles, don't see this issue happen again.
Usually when receiving a product, my first action is to turn off all features I don't need (worrying that leaving unneeded circuits on will introduce noise, heat, and shorten the life of the HW). So with Hilo I always turn OFF all inputs, and all outputs, and only leave USB 1,2 ON, and headphone out ON. In such setting the problem occurs at the chance of about 30% ~ 50% of the time when turned on.
So, maybe this is not a defect of our specific units, but a general bug in the firmware or hardware.
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Hilo USB clock @ wrong freq